Victoria Chang
Ekphrasis and Exorcists:
Victoria Chang’s With My Back to the World
Dialogue with Lauren K. Watel
In the first line of my interview with poet Victoria Chang, the voice-to-text program I was using transcribed the word “ekphrasis” as “Exorcists.” A felicitous mishearing, much to my delight. Ekphrasis, a Greek word meaning “description,” is a rhetorical practice in which language depicts something visual. Examples of ekphrasis abound throughout the history of poetry, usually in poems describing visual art.
With My Back to the World, Chang’s latest collection of poetry, is a wildly innovative, deeply unsettling and moving addition to the tradition of poetic ekphrasis. For Chang, extended experiments in ekphrasis acted as exorcists of sorts, exposing painful experiences as they were happening, expressing feelings she wasn’t aware she was feeling. This cross-media exchange resulted in truly original work, characterized by its stark beauty, its strangeness, its intelligence and relentless candor; I’ve never read anything quite like it.
Though poems in the book’s framing sections take their titles from the titles of Agnes Martin paintings, their relationship to Martin’s work is knotty, digressive and dynamic, far from straightforward. Every encounter between the poet and a painting generates a dreamlike scene or startling vision; these accumulate into a disquieting portrait of Chang’s inner life.
Multiple overlapping modes of art making inform this collection. First, the work by Agnes Martin. Because Chang doesn’t include it in the book, the reader must imagine the source paintings, which shadow the poetry as inspirational absences, phantom images evoked by each poem’s linguistic turns. For example, because of the mathematical nature of Martin’s work, which relies on the calculated use of lines, grids and other marks, Chang will often count different elements from the painting; this counting leads to further counting. “I now know that my heart is made of 1,376 grids,” she says in “Play, 1966.” Counting becomes an important motif shared by both artists, both media.
Second, the poetry itself. With each poem Chang takes a painting not as an image to describe but as a springboard to contemplate persistent, nagging questions, insights, emotions. Enigmatic musings—on depression, for instance—often emerge. “If I turn the canvas on its side, the lines look like my depression stacking,” Chang says of (and in) “The Tree, 1964.” “Once I write the word depression, it is no longer my feeling,” she declares in “Play, 1966.” “It is now on view for others to walk toward, lean in, and peer at.” Other motifs include the intrusive gaze (often male), women’s bodies, loneliness and grief, animals and insects, fields, trees, the nature of language, the nature of the self.
The poems appear in blocklike rectangles corresponding to canvases, as if every page in the book were a wall in a gallery, hung with a poem. Chang plays freely with formal elements: prose poems abound, as do poems of varying line and stanza lengths; there’s a poem cut vertically in half (“The Islands, 1961”), a poem quartered, a grid poem. She employs numbers, Chinese characters, and typography symbols, so that the written work conveys a visual dynamism in conversation with the paintings that inspired it.
Third, what Chang calls “illustrations.” Poem-based visual works crafted by the poet accompany certain poems. One such image opposite “The Tree, 1964” features a composition in the exact shape of the poem on a gray canvas-like background, with small vertical marks over the words, as if the poet has carefully scored through the poem’s content. The work resembles a series of tracks, or a record of someone counting something, days spent in captivity, perhaps.
Fourth, the hybrid work created in the imagination of the reader. As people immerse themselves in the book, they invariably bring their own impressions to bear on that process. An array of complex experiences unfolds, each hovering at the borders between text and image, emotion and intellect, poet and painter, writer and reader.
The book’s middle section, a serial poem entitled “Today,” takes inspiration from the Today Series, paintings by the Japanese conceptual artist On Kawara. These works feature the date of the painting’s creation rendered in white on a monochromatic background. Chang’s poetic homage reads like short lyric diary entries, each headed by a date in the same graphic format as the Today paintings. This section also includes accompanying “illustrations,” with some of the text blacked out, as though censored.
The sequence constitutes a record of the poet’s thoughts, speculations and feelings, not always welcome or pleasant, as she keeps vigil over her slowly dying father. The act of writing, of engaging with language, becomes one way to navigate the unbearable agony of waiting. For example, in the second two lines of the unnervingly concise quatrain “Jan.19.2022,” Chang makes a poetic leap from the figurative to the literal: “Every phone call says the same thing, that he / is hanging on. And I imagine you / holding on to the edge of a building, / the city’s mouths waiting for you to jump.” The entries take the poet through her father’s death and cremation, leaving her with an ongoing grief, as well as the possibility of hope.
In addition to fertile interchanges with Agnes Martin and On Kawara, Chang’s work reflects an impressive range of artistic and intellectual influences, among them Etel Adnan, Ad Reinhardt, Mary Ruefle, Adolf Loos, Stéphane Mallarmé, Rainer Maria Rilke, and Fernando Pessoa. Pessoa, a 20th century Portuguese literary figure, was known for his inventive cast of “heteronyms,” the myriad alternative identities he assumed as a writer. Quotes from Pessoa in “The Islands, 1961” and “Play, 1966” point to Chang’s deep skepticism regarding the construct of a unified self.
Adventurous and probing, pointed and haunted, With My Back to the World rewards close, committed, repeated reading. Each painting, each poem, each illustration leads Chang to fundamental questions: Who are we? Why do we feel the way we feel? Why do we die? How do we live? In posing these questions, and in trying to grasp answers that endlessly elude her, Chang makes work that shimmers with vulnerability, sorrow, turmoil, yearning, curiosity and mystery.
Lauren K.Watel
Decatur, Georgia
October 2024
Lauren K. Watel: Your book approached ekphrasis in an extremely layered and original way. There's a complicated relationship between the work of Agnes Martin and your own work. The poetry is in dialogue with the art, but it’s not illustrative. Rather, Martin’s paintings, which you don’t include in the book, lead you to emotional, existential, and artistic concerns. Any thoughts?
Victoria Chang: I love ekphrastic poems, and I’ve thought a lot about them. I knew I wasn't doing what other people have done with the form, necessarily. The art was a starting point, something to look at, something to converse with, but I was very, very happy to leap away from the paintings. It was almost like a writing prompt—here's an Agnes Martin painting—to get me going. It’s hard to stare at a blank page. The painting gave me new ideas. I find myself most engaged with my own writing when I'm reading something or looking at something that gives me ideas.
I would never consider putting Agnes Martin's paintings in my book. That feels too much like spoon feeding. When I do readings, I’ll bring slides of Agnes Martin's paintings, because readings can be one-dimensional. I give people something to look at. But I would never do it in a book because I feel like that might be limiting the reader’s imagination.
I believe in leaving a lot of space, whatever that means, between language or between ideas. I like those big leaps because giving the reader that space allows them to fill it in. And there is another dance, between the reader and the writer. I don't want to tell them everything. There’s a triangulation between the reader, the writer, and a third ghost of the reader’s own new experience.
LW: It felt like the paintings put you in touch with feelings inside you that were bubbling underneath the surface, and then you were off. Is that right?
VC: Yes, totally. I don't always have the ability to know right away how I'm feeling. Oftentimes I don't. Sometimes I have to talk it through with someone, or think it through. I have to work through something. I talk until I realize what I'm actually thinking or feeling. In that way the poems are not talking only about the painting but veering away quite a lot. I think many ekphrastic poems do that, but maybe not quite as much as mine.
LW: With certain poems you include what you call “illustrations,” such as the image opposite “The Tree, 1964.” These constitute a form of visual art created by you. Could you talk about how these pieces relate to Agnes Martin’s paintings?
VC: Someone asked me that question once before, and I'm not really satisfied with my answer. I'm such a process-oriented maker; when I'm making something, I just go wherever I need to go. It's not clear to me until much later—or ever—why I did something. I just take a stab at it.
Now I'm thinking about what each of these illustrations is doing. It’s occluding something, right? It's trying to cover up and reveal certain things. But the things it's covering up and revealing are my own writing and thoughts. I feel like shame is such a large part of my DNA, who I am, the way I was raised. Not in a bad way, it just is. It's how I navigate the world and see the world. Writing poetry is so important to my existence, to the way I live in the world. But sometimes I feel uncomfortable with it, and I want to cover up some of the things I wrote. So, there's one idea.
The second idea is that after conversing with Agnes Martin's writing and her visual art, I wasn't quite finished with it. I wanted to keep talking to her in some way that wasn't through language. Her marks and mark-making were ways of making her own language. Talking through a given written language, like the alphabet, I felt I wasn't fully connecting with her. I wanted to try and mark-make, to see if I could mind-meld with her and converse with her a little more, and in a different way, in her primary language. She did a lot of writing, but she made visual art first.
Victoria Chang's drawing of her poem The Tree, 1964
LW: Another interesting heartbeat in this book is how depression keeps appearing in different guises, and in language as well. Did this take you by surprise?
VC: For people like me, and maybe for a lot of people, when you're experiencing depression, you're not even aware. It took me a long time to realize that I’d been depressed for so long, for all sorts of reasons. Also, that I'm naturally a bit of a depressive, even though no one would really know that. So, it came out, and there's something about Agnes Martin and her work that brought it out unintentionally. Once I named it, once I wrote it down, I wasn't afraid of it anymore.
Now I actually forget it's in there. Sometimes people will ask me if I'm doing okay, or they'll say the book is really dark. Some people don't like that focus of the book. But it was freeing to write that word. And to keep writing it when it wanted to come out, because I’d spent so many years denying, or not even knowing, that I was feeling those feelings.
Also, mental health is not something a lot of Asian American families acknowledge. It took me a long time to get to this place, to be able to say I wasn’t doing that well. And I'm not necessarily free of that shame. But I definitely know I should never feel ashamed. So that's where I am now. I think Agnes Martin's work helped me say those words aloud. And I think it's important to name things in order to help yourself feel better or get better.
LW: In many of the poems, “Play, 1966,” for example, there is counting. The book is full of counting, enumerating, apportioning, holding, ordering. Did this feature of Agnes Martin's work, the lines and grids, this impulse to contain, count, enumerate, speak to you?
VC: My mom was a math teacher, my father was a mechanical engineer, and all of us were inclined toward math. I've always liked to count. It's a way of making sense of the world. It's also a kind of busy work, like knitting.
I was not in a good place when I wrote that book. I think counting was a way to help soothe myself. And because Agnes Martin did a lot of counting—she used math to figure out how to lay out her artwork—that whole experience really resonated with me. It was very fun. Very soothing, and distracting, to look at her work, to start counting, and miscount, and have to recount. I put that process into the poems because it felt right.
I really love how math helps create the beginning of something. I've always thought of math as a way to know where you are, and then you can decide where you want to go. Without that, I feel like I'm floating in outer space. That's the role of math in in my life. Counting is my way to make sense of the world around me naturally. That's definitely how Agnes Martin made her paintings. So, I think we were a great match.
LW: At the end of “The Islands, 1961” you say that “even happiness is made by / writing something down, / then leaving it exposed / for all to see. Is it possible / to be seen but not looked / at?” Throughout the book you express ambivalence about how writing exposes the writer, especially the woman writer, to the gaze of others, men in particular. Could you elaborate?
VC: Growing up as a woman and BIPOC person, I was bullied. People made fun of me, the way my eyes looked, the way I dressed, all the ways I was different from them. Very common, so I didn't like to be seen. In my own family, when I was seen, it was because I was getting in trouble. I was mischievous at times as a child. So, I felt like being seen was a terrible thing. I don't like to be seen.
But in America, to be seen as a woman is considered a positive thing. You want to be attractive, so people notice you. Like many women, I spent my whole life trying to get the attention of men. Then, as women age, nobody looks at you. And it's a big transition to go through these mixed feelings about being seen and not being seen.
Ultimately, it's ego, too. Now we have social media, where everybody wants to be seen all the time, and you're supposed to be seen. You're always snapping photos to put on social media, but I have discomfort with it. So that added another complexity and layer. When my book OBIT came out in 2020, suddenly people were interested in me and the book, which took me by crazy surprise. I wasn't prepared for it, and I didn't like it.
I think all those things play into this issue of being perceived, being seen, not being seen, because you want your work to be read. Otherwise, why would poets publish their books and their poems? I don't know if many people would say otherwise. I would like people to read my work, and I'm fine with saying that, but I don't want them to see me. And in modern culture, there's a conflation between the artist and the work that makes me uncomfortable.
LW: I could sense that discomfort in the book, an ambivalence about language pinning down things that you might not be comfortable sharing. You can't control how people see you.
VC: When people read your work, they might perceive you in certain ways, and that's who they think you are. But that's something any writer just has to get over. Because if you can't, you're going to have a hell of a time getting your work out in the world. Trying to control the narrative is not something a writer can ever really do. So, I told myself, Just be honest with how you're feeling at a particular moment in your writing, and the consequences are the consequences.
You can always edit things out later, which I've done. I've taken forty poems out of this book. Just write, and you can take things out later. But with what's left, like the detritus when the ocean recedes, there are so many shells that you can't really take out all of them without unraveling, dismantling the whole poem. So maybe you just have to leave them for people to pick up and collect.
LW: The middle section of the book comprises another extremely original and dynamic experiment with ekphrasis, inspired by the Today series by On Kawara. These daily poems have a sharp concision, both formally and emotionally, and can be harrowing. While keeping vigil over your father, you make extraordinary statements. For example, in “Jan.18.2022” you write, “If I lean in, / I can hear all the words said in your / life now in a different order. There's still / no love, even though I've looked through all the / words twice. I go digging in the mass grave / of language for the extra loves and I / end up bringing loneliness back with me.” Can you talk about this series?
VC: When my dad was in that last bit of time, I just wanted to write myself through it, because it felt so hard. I didn't think I was going to be able to do it even though I had been caring for him after his stroke for something like thirteen years already. I didn't think I was going to make it through, and I felt shame about this, because it wasn’t about me; he was the one who was dying. I kept telling that to myself, but I also thought, This is so hard. So, I said, Why don’t you just write yourself through this time?
I thought it was going to be, like, five days. But he lasted so long, and it was so awful. I told myself I was going to be honest about a lot of things I was feeling. And there's something really interesting about being in such a dire situation, where you don't know when it's going to end, and what those times bring out in in someone's mind.
I have a hundred percent knowledge and assurance that my father loved me to death, but he never told me. So, you start thinking about things like that. He died in my mind when he had a stroke, a long time ago, I told myself, but he wasn’t really dead. I had so much confidence that I would be fine, but in the end, I was very not fine.
I was so emotional during that period, and I was using this form On Kawara used. And the ten syllables, too, another way of counting. Each of those lines is ten syllables. It was literally the only way I could get through the days, by having something to do with my fingers.
I was honest, and I made a lot of mistakes. I did my best caretaking for him, but there are things I felt I could have done better. And I had feelings and thoughts I considered really unattractive. I didn't consciously say, I'm going to do this or that. It just happened. The lines just came out the way they wanted to. And when I saw what I had left, I decided to leave it like that. I'm not the first person who's gone through this. So, I'm just going to to leave it like this. It is what it is.
Cover of Obit by Victoria Chang
LW: Out of the four poems I chose, two have quotes from Pessoa: “In order to understand, / I destroyed myself (“The Islands, 1961”)” and “a real and true unity / Is a disease of our ideas (“Play 1966”).” Your work constantly interrogates the idea of a unified, stable self. Is this why Pessoa interests you?
VC: I am so attracted to Pessoa. I carry around The Book of Disquiet almost like a Bible. I relate to the way he views the world. He's a bit of a nihilist, which I think I am as well. The way he so easily floated in and out and through different personalities, I totally connect with as an Asian American woman. I’m constantly putting on different skins and behaving in different ways, depending on where I am. It’s a form of dissociation, but it's also a form of assimilation.
I don't know how well I do it, but I’ve had to assimilate into many different environments in my lifetime, different cultures, different fields. Because I like a lot of things. I like thinking about so many different ideas. Being in one place as one person doesn’t feel like who I am.
At the end of the day, I think Pessoa was a philosopher. Not a poet, not a writer. He's a philosopher. He considered all these big questions about existence. And that's what I spend my day thinking about. If I have a pencil and paper and start writing, I'll always end up with the same questions: Is there a self? Why am I here? There's not a poem I've written that doesn't explore those kinds of notions. I think Pessoa was like that, too.
LW: All through the book you question the power of language. Does it have any import or substance? It seems so fragile, almost nothing. And yet, it illuminates your depression to you, helps you get through your father's demise. Could you talk about that interplay?
VC: I’m obsessed with language. I'm interested in the philosophers who thought about language. I think about language all the time, because I speak multiple languages. Growing up, we spoke Chinese in the house. My dad often spoke English to me, but my mom always spoke Chinese. Sometimes it was Chinglish—Chinese to English and back. When we were gossiping or secretive in public, we always spoke Chinese.
I was constantly moving back and forth between languages, and I still am today. Baked into growing up with so many languages is the understanding that each one isn't quite good enough. There are some words that are better in Chinese. There are some phrases that are better in English. But neither language ever really gets to the core of how you feel. When I was writing my book OBIT, I was exploring the failure of language to describe this enormous grief I was feeling.
On the other hand, language is also the thing that saves me. There is purpose in language. There are gifts in language, and there's a reason why language exists. Obviously, we need it, but I'm always thinking about how it never quite gets there. And that's kind of cool. It's always going to be a millimeter away from the thing you're trying to articulate, which tells you how immense the human soul and mind are.
I'm constantly intrigued by how big someone's brain is, and how big their feelings are. How it's like one big endless cave you go down. Language tries so hard to articulate those feelings, but really it can't. But if you do a good job as a writer, maybe you can get close. And, oddly, when you get close, you might connect with some other human being, who feels similarly at that point in their life, too.
Victoria Chang’s most recent book of poems is With My Back to the World, published in 2024 by Farrar, Straus & Giroux. It received the Forward Prize in Poetry for Best Collection. She has received a Guggenheim Fellowship and the Chowdhury International Prize in Literature. She is the Bourne Chair in Poetry at Georgia Tech and Director of Poetry@Tech.
Victoria Chang
photo: Jay L. Clendenin
Lauren K. Watel’s debut book, a collection of prose poetry entitled BOOK of POTIONS (potion = poem + fiction), was awarded the Kathryn A. Morton Prize in Poetry, selected by Ilya Kaminsky, and will be published in February 2025 by Sarabande Books. Her poetry, fiction, essays and translations have appeared widely. A native of Dallas,Texas, she lives in Decatur, Georgia.
Lauren K. Watel
photo: Ashley Kauschinger